Hard-wired to expect a pantsing - yep, it never leaves our shoulder. The pity of it is it takes away from the highs. Just cannot enjoy them for what they are, because there’s always that nagging thought that it’s letting our guard down.
Listened to the BYC podcast yesterday and on the subject of evaluating the best away series wins, it was interesting to hear Chris Cairns talk about it on the Sportscafeish show. He said the 1999 team had a group chat where'd they'd pondered the same and they landed on the AU series simply because they found it so hard to win there. I take the point about that AU team of late 80s not being of top quality but it's still an AU team in AU conditions. Maybe it's also that familiarity and closeness to AU that elevated it too. Great discussion anyway. Keep up the excellent work.
Interesting — being born in 85, that series happened before I could claim any consciousness. Conceptually, the emotional pull of beating Australia in Australia is significant. That said, the Australian side I became aware of growing was the Australia of the Waughs, of Warne, and of McGrath. Of Australia versus Australia A in the Benson & Hedges tri-series finals. The total domination and mental disintegration era.
The Aussies of 85 were not that. They weren’t even on the road to that yet. On paper I’d argue that the New Zealand side of 85 was a better side than the Australians (and we would’ve tied the series in 87, but for some dodgy local umpiring, when the foundations for Australia’s era of bastardry and dastardly domination were being laid). Boone, Border, and McDermott make a combined XI.
But this series victory, evaluated purely as a sporting achievement, has to rate higher. The wealth India has talent and financial resource is unfathomably immense — the disparity between us is absurd. The circumstances leading into the tour gave us zero chance — I’d love to know what the bookies' odds were on us winning even a match. Without Williamson, without Sears, and still without Jamieson, the series in Sri Lanka, and Southee looking weary, and past his best, and stepping down as captain.India not having lost a series at home in 12 years, with a team full of all-time greats.
Before a ball is bowled, and without seeing the pitch, who makes a combined XI? Rachin, and O'Rourke, maybe, on promise — maybe — and only if you're being generous; Ajaz, perhaps, tokenistically, for his 10fer? IF Williamson had been a available he'd have been the only lock, and even then an argument could be made against given his record in India (not sure if he'd be bothered by it, but I'm quietly gutted that he didn't have the chance to improve it and it seems unlikely he'll get another opportunity). Even now, to play a one-off test match anywhere in the world, I'm only picking Rachin, Henry, and O'Rourke.
This win was beyond improbable — the nature of test cricket really favours the side that plays with the most sustained skill and a moment of brilliance or a singular performance seldom steals victory from a stronger side that has played better across the whole mstch. You can burgle a T20, even an ODI, but a test match? A test series? We've outplayed India, in India, for 5 of the 8 days played, with 2 days play being roughly shared. With this NZ team. Against THAT Indian team. A simulation algorithm would get this result maybe one time out of 1000. If that.
As a fan I think I want a test series win in Australia more, but I've also hoped for it before, even expected it, and so I've been burnt with each failure. I don't know that I've ever even hoped for a series win in India. A drawn series of draws would have felt like a victory. Before this.
But yeah, just really interesting to hear that player opinion, as you say probably affected by years of torment and longing for a result in Aussie. I was born in 1983 so likewise no real experience of the serious win in Aus. Maybe it's better to say the Aussie one was more meaningful to players but India win is more impressive?
3 thoughts about the cricket. Firstly, our records in each other's country is the same with one series won, two drawn and the rest lost. The clincher which majes us a better test matchnation, head-to-head is our WTC title at Lords. Secondly, when Indis loses in NZ, they are moaning about the weather, the food, the lack of atmosphere and the fact theur jerseys itch. We do send them to Dunedin or Chistchurch in spring but well, because we can. They often capitulate in a huff. Finally, are we going to build spinning pitches to face our test foes in NZ now? There's definitely an argument to do so and who in their right mind sends more than one spinner to NZ unless they can bat?
New Zealand beat Wales, Ireland, Scotland and England in the 1995 world cup, and nobody called that a Grand Slam.
Hard-wired to expect a pantsing - yep, it never leaves our shoulder. The pity of it is it takes away from the highs. Just cannot enjoy them for what they are, because there’s always that nagging thought that it’s letting our guard down.
Listened to the BYC podcast yesterday and on the subject of evaluating the best away series wins, it was interesting to hear Chris Cairns talk about it on the Sportscafeish show. He said the 1999 team had a group chat where'd they'd pondered the same and they landed on the AU series simply because they found it so hard to win there. I take the point about that AU team of late 80s not being of top quality but it's still an AU team in AU conditions. Maybe it's also that familiarity and closeness to AU that elevated it too. Great discussion anyway. Keep up the excellent work.
Interesting — being born in 85, that series happened before I could claim any consciousness. Conceptually, the emotional pull of beating Australia in Australia is significant. That said, the Australian side I became aware of growing was the Australia of the Waughs, of Warne, and of McGrath. Of Australia versus Australia A in the Benson & Hedges tri-series finals. The total domination and mental disintegration era.
The Aussies of 85 were not that. They weren’t even on the road to that yet. On paper I’d argue that the New Zealand side of 85 was a better side than the Australians (and we would’ve tied the series in 87, but for some dodgy local umpiring, when the foundations for Australia’s era of bastardry and dastardly domination were being laid). Boone, Border, and McDermott make a combined XI.
But this series victory, evaluated purely as a sporting achievement, has to rate higher. The wealth India has talent and financial resource is unfathomably immense — the disparity between us is absurd. The circumstances leading into the tour gave us zero chance — I’d love to know what the bookies' odds were on us winning even a match. Without Williamson, without Sears, and still without Jamieson, the series in Sri Lanka, and Southee looking weary, and past his best, and stepping down as captain.India not having lost a series at home in 12 years, with a team full of all-time greats.
Before a ball is bowled, and without seeing the pitch, who makes a combined XI? Rachin, and O'Rourke, maybe, on promise — maybe — and only if you're being generous; Ajaz, perhaps, tokenistically, for his 10fer? IF Williamson had been a available he'd have been the only lock, and even then an argument could be made against given his record in India (not sure if he'd be bothered by it, but I'm quietly gutted that he didn't have the chance to improve it and it seems unlikely he'll get another opportunity). Even now, to play a one-off test match anywhere in the world, I'm only picking Rachin, Henry, and O'Rourke.
This win was beyond improbable — the nature of test cricket really favours the side that plays with the most sustained skill and a moment of brilliance or a singular performance seldom steals victory from a stronger side that has played better across the whole mstch. You can burgle a T20, even an ODI, but a test match? A test series? We've outplayed India, in India, for 5 of the 8 days played, with 2 days play being roughly shared. With this NZ team. Against THAT Indian team. A simulation algorithm would get this result maybe one time out of 1000. If that.
As a fan I think I want a test series win in Australia more, but I've also hoped for it before, even expected it, and so I've been burnt with each failure. I don't know that I've ever even hoped for a series win in India. A drawn series of draws would have felt like a victory. Before this.
Exceptional argument, definitely hard to argue.
But yeah, just really interesting to hear that player opinion, as you say probably affected by years of torment and longing for a result in Aussie. I was born in 1983 so likewise no real experience of the serious win in Aus. Maybe it's better to say the Aussie one was more meaningful to players but India win is more impressive?
3 thoughts about the cricket. Firstly, our records in each other's country is the same with one series won, two drawn and the rest lost. The clincher which majes us a better test matchnation, head-to-head is our WTC title at Lords. Secondly, when Indis loses in NZ, they are moaning about the weather, the food, the lack of atmosphere and the fact theur jerseys itch. We do send them to Dunedin or Chistchurch in spring but well, because we can. They often capitulate in a huff. Finally, are we going to build spinning pitches to face our test foes in NZ now? There's definitely an argument to do so and who in their right mind sends more than one spinner to NZ unless they can bat?