Ever since we folded like a well lubricated deck chair this morning, I've been looking forward to Dylan's take.
I, for one, would like to see us be slightly brave in the second test by picking Nathan Smith if O'Rourke is done. Then, pick Santner no matter the conditions. It allows us to rotate our seamers through while Santner and Phillips do the mahi at the other end.
Our batting cupboard is worryingly bare though aye.
The Black Caps selectors are simply hollow shells. Forget about the form or otherwise of their selections, just consider the character of one of their selections. They stand for nothing and will fall for anything.
And I thought White Ferns selectors were the most galling people in NZ cricket ...
Agree with all above comments. I told myself this afternoon that I wasn’t angry, I was just disappointed but I think I’m kidding myself. Continuous poor succession planning, bowlers who seem to get injured significantly more than other teams seem to, poor man management (Wagner needed a proper send off, not whatever that was) and a batting strategy that seems to be Kane will get most of the runs, and the others will chip in if necessary. I’ll get over it but probably not before Friday.
Re: cricket, a gutting performance and I really wish Southee’s post match comments referred to a loss that hurts / stings (or words to that effect) rather than the usual vanilla / whitewashed shite about taking learnings on board etc.
With the bat, especially in the second innings, we were only really gotten out once and that was Kuggeleijn who got an absolute brute of a ball from Green - that guy is a scary talent and watching him live he looked harder to handle with the ball than Starc, Cummins, Hazlewood and Marsh due to his seriously steep bounce - its outrageous that Australia have a 5th seamer like that up their sleeve and barely called on. Oh and he made 174*. JFC. The hype appears real.
Its time for Henry to lead our attack in tests. He was outstanding.
Yep, agree on Southee. I sit bravely and faithfully on the couch for 4 days supporting my team, I think I deserve a better reaction than his lame 'we'll be better in Christchurch' BS which he always trots out.
Following a mate's recommendation I looked into Smith's record. Not amazing but batting average above bowling which is a start.
He has scored a first class century albeit only once.
Comparing to Kuggelijn he's better on all measures other than rate of hundreds. Better rate of getting to 50 though which is probably a better measure for that position anyway. Most importantly Smith is 7 years younger. Worth investing in I'd suggest, albeit ideally not against the dirty filthy cheating strayans.
This team's giving me real 'Black Caps circa 2012' vibes.
Several players are in a prolonged form slump, which either talks to their complacency/lack of pressure and/or a lack of coaching support and planning.
There are also a couple who are reaching the end of their careers, and succession planning seems either non-existent (Southee) or ham fisted (Wagner).
There are currently so many questions with this team: Should Southee be captain? Who's the batting depth and back-up keeper? What's up with KJ's injury management and loadings? Who will take over from Southee?
Combine it with weird selections (Kuggeleijn, refusal to play a spinner), awful fielding standards, and a lack of planning it seems like this team can no longer see the wood for the trees
A quick question - what does Luke Ronchi offer as a batting coach? Bar a single innings—that massive 170* in one ODI—his career stats were pretty mediocre. Played significantly more ODIs than t20s or tests with an average of a shade below 24 in his most dominant format.
I cant comment on his coaching directly, but we certainly cant judge it by his own performance as a player. The correlation between coaching ability and personal playing ability is very, very poor. I seem to remember the late great Martin Crowe being highly critical of Mike Hesson for a lack of top level cricket playing and look how that turned out.
I'd go so far as to say great players will almost certainly be bad coaches because of their (necessary) self-obsession before retirement
Yeah fair points. Same could be said for Stead too. Domestic journeyman, only NZ coach to win an ICC test championship. Perhaps has stayed on too long.
Yeah, absolutely fair to judge on their achievements. And those are a concern. Did they take the team onwards and upwards? Or just enjoy a glide from where the team had already got to?
That's a fair question but without the career analysis. Lots of batsmen are either not improving or regressing - Latham, Blundell, Young, Conway - our plans look non-existent, we slogged through the T20 series...can't see any level of leadership or coaching going on
Interested to hear your deeper thoughts about the leadership in this New Zealand team. I've just about had a gutsful of not only losing, but losing unintelligently, without valour, against good sides. Pains me to watch captain Southee bat with such irresponsibility (guess he'd say it's the way I play?) and look like he's had the emotional part of his brain - along with the reasoned thinking portion - plucked from his skull in post-match pressers. And do we ever hear from Gary Stead? Why, under his watch, do we largely seem to not have a decent plan with the bat?
Is anybody else disappointed in Tim Southee’s attitude as a batsman?
He’s long been frustrating to watch given how much talent and potential he has, but I was particularly unimpressed by his apparent willingness to sell his wicket cheaply in this test. He lasted 12 balls in total.
Especially as captain he owes it to his team to show some real fight. With their experience he and Mitchell could have made things difficult for the Aussies to close out the match, but Southee seemed not to care.
Look at the contrast with Josh Hazelwood ( who on the face of it is an inferior batsman to Southee) when he had an established batsman at the other end- a match changing partnership ensued.
It’s a fair point. It’s cultural in Australian cricket to make the opponent earn your wicket. When I played grade cricket over there any takers of short cuts were given absolute grief, even below 1st XI level. Things that we regard as “bad luck” in NZ are considered grievous mistakes over there. That’s what we’re up against. I watched some highlights of the 2005 NZ / Oz Basin test and was fascinated to hear Jeremy Coney talking about “hitting a hanky” with lines and lengths. That’s precisely what we didn’t do on Day 1. There was still enough on offer that we got regular wickets but it was nowhere near precise enough to take full advantage of having won the toss. That’s an example of the class gap that exists between the teams.
When was the last time the Black Caps batted for more than 90 overs against Australia? Gotta be when Ross Taylor scored 290 on that road in Perth. Black Caps are never going to challenge Australia unless they can bat 90+ overs and put their bowlers under any kind of pressure
Well covered Dylan, it’s nice to see some proper turning over of the issues and not the parochial hope for the best coverage encountered elsewhere. It’s feeling oh so familiar - another series against Oz where the best we can hope for is to see a couple of individuals stand up and make a name for themselves amongst the carnage. Selection wise it feels like we’ve painted ourselves into a corner because realistically who can we bring in? The Plunket Shield is only warming up and those names that are being thrown about don’t inspire confidence. No disrespect to Nathan Smith or those throwing his name into the mix but he is simply not test quality - think a later day Andy Ellis. Agree about the individuals in the “out of form category” but I can’t see Southee, Blundell or Latham being rested. Perhaps the best that can come of this is that a serious rebuilding occurs in its aftermath, around the new hopes (Phillips, Ravindra, O’Rourke etc) and proven performers with some gas left in the tank (Henry, Williamson etc)?
Ever since we folded like a well lubricated deck chair this morning, I've been looking forward to Dylan's take.
I, for one, would like to see us be slightly brave in the second test by picking Nathan Smith if O'Rourke is done. Then, pick Santner no matter the conditions. It allows us to rotate our seamers through while Santner and Phillips do the mahi at the other end.
Our batting cupboard is worryingly bare though aye.
Oh, and FFS drop Kuggeleijn. You know why.
Couldn't have said it better myself Dave
Great WBHS minds think alike mate.
The Black Caps selectors are simply hollow shells. Forget about the form or otherwise of their selections, just consider the character of one of their selections. They stand for nothing and will fall for anything.
And I thought White Ferns selectors were the most galling people in NZ cricket ...
Agree with all above comments. I told myself this afternoon that I wasn’t angry, I was just disappointed but I think I’m kidding myself. Continuous poor succession planning, bowlers who seem to get injured significantly more than other teams seem to, poor man management (Wagner needed a proper send off, not whatever that was) and a batting strategy that seems to be Kane will get most of the runs, and the others will chip in if necessary. I’ll get over it but probably not before Friday.
Re: cricket, a gutting performance and I really wish Southee’s post match comments referred to a loss that hurts / stings (or words to that effect) rather than the usual vanilla / whitewashed shite about taking learnings on board etc.
With the bat, especially in the second innings, we were only really gotten out once and that was Kuggeleijn who got an absolute brute of a ball from Green - that guy is a scary talent and watching him live he looked harder to handle with the ball than Starc, Cummins, Hazlewood and Marsh due to his seriously steep bounce - its outrageous that Australia have a 5th seamer like that up their sleeve and barely called on. Oh and he made 174*. JFC. The hype appears real.
Its time for Henry to lead our attack in tests. He was outstanding.
Yep, agree on Southee. I sit bravely and faithfully on the couch for 4 days supporting my team, I think I deserve a better reaction than his lame 'we'll be better in Christchurch' BS which he always trots out.
Following a mate's recommendation I looked into Smith's record. Not amazing but batting average above bowling which is a start.
He has scored a first class century albeit only once.
Comparing to Kuggelijn he's better on all measures other than rate of hundreds. Better rate of getting to 50 though which is probably a better measure for that position anyway. Most importantly Smith is 7 years younger. Worth investing in I'd suggest, albeit ideally not against the dirty filthy cheating strayans.
This team's giving me real 'Black Caps circa 2012' vibes.
Several players are in a prolonged form slump, which either talks to their complacency/lack of pressure and/or a lack of coaching support and planning.
There are also a couple who are reaching the end of their careers, and succession planning seems either non-existent (Southee) or ham fisted (Wagner).
There are currently so many questions with this team: Should Southee be captain? Who's the batting depth and back-up keeper? What's up with KJ's injury management and loadings? Who will take over from Southee?
Combine it with weird selections (Kuggeleijn, refusal to play a spinner), awful fielding standards, and a lack of planning it seems like this team can no longer see the wood for the trees
A quick question - what does Luke Ronchi offer as a batting coach? Bar a single innings—that massive 170* in one ODI—his career stats were pretty mediocre. Played significantly more ODIs than t20s or tests with an average of a shade below 24 in his most dominant format.
I cant comment on his coaching directly, but we certainly cant judge it by his own performance as a player. The correlation between coaching ability and personal playing ability is very, very poor. I seem to remember the late great Martin Crowe being highly critical of Mike Hesson for a lack of top level cricket playing and look how that turned out.
I'd go so far as to say great players will almost certainly be bad coaches because of their (necessary) self-obsession before retirement
Yeah fair points. Same could be said for Stead too. Domestic journeyman, only NZ coach to win an ICC test championship. Perhaps has stayed on too long.
Yeah, absolutely fair to judge on their achievements. And those are a concern. Did they take the team onwards and upwards? Or just enjoy a glide from where the team had already got to?
That's a fair question but without the career analysis. Lots of batsmen are either not improving or regressing - Latham, Blundell, Young, Conway - our plans look non-existent, we slogged through the T20 series...can't see any level of leadership or coaching going on
Interested to hear your deeper thoughts about the leadership in this New Zealand team. I've just about had a gutsful of not only losing, but losing unintelligently, without valour, against good sides. Pains me to watch captain Southee bat with such irresponsibility (guess he'd say it's the way I play?) and look like he's had the emotional part of his brain - along with the reasoned thinking portion - plucked from his skull in post-match pressers. And do we ever hear from Gary Stead? Why, under his watch, do we largely seem to not have a decent plan with the bat?
Is anybody else disappointed in Tim Southee’s attitude as a batsman?
He’s long been frustrating to watch given how much talent and potential he has, but I was particularly unimpressed by his apparent willingness to sell his wicket cheaply in this test. He lasted 12 balls in total.
Especially as captain he owes it to his team to show some real fight. With their experience he and Mitchell could have made things difficult for the Aussies to close out the match, but Southee seemed not to care.
Look at the contrast with Josh Hazelwood ( who on the face of it is an inferior batsman to Southee) when he had an established batsman at the other end- a match changing partnership ensued.
It’s a fair point. It’s cultural in Australian cricket to make the opponent earn your wicket. When I played grade cricket over there any takers of short cuts were given absolute grief, even below 1st XI level. Things that we regard as “bad luck” in NZ are considered grievous mistakes over there. That’s what we’re up against. I watched some highlights of the 2005 NZ / Oz Basin test and was fascinated to hear Jeremy Coney talking about “hitting a hanky” with lines and lengths. That’s precisely what we didn’t do on Day 1. There was still enough on offer that we got regular wickets but it was nowhere near precise enough to take full advantage of having won the toss. That’s an example of the class gap that exists between the teams.
Tim Southee - NZ Crickets Joe Biden
When was the last time the Black Caps batted for more than 90 overs against Australia? Gotta be when Ross Taylor scored 290 on that road in Perth. Black Caps are never going to challenge Australia unless they can bat 90+ overs and put their bowlers under any kind of pressure
Well covered Dylan, it’s nice to see some proper turning over of the issues and not the parochial hope for the best coverage encountered elsewhere. It’s feeling oh so familiar - another series against Oz where the best we can hope for is to see a couple of individuals stand up and make a name for themselves amongst the carnage. Selection wise it feels like we’ve painted ourselves into a corner because realistically who can we bring in? The Plunket Shield is only warming up and those names that are being thrown about don’t inspire confidence. No disrespect to Nathan Smith or those throwing his name into the mix but he is simply not test quality - think a later day Andy Ellis. Agree about the individuals in the “out of form category” but I can’t see Southee, Blundell or Latham being rested. Perhaps the best that can come of this is that a serious rebuilding occurs in its aftermath, around the new hopes (Phillips, Ravindra, O’Rourke etc) and proven performers with some gas left in the tank (Henry, Williamson etc)?